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Who OWNS the Promissory Note?

PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 5:14 pm
by bustthematrix
Who legally (or lawfully) OWNS the promissory note, PN made by a promisor? Is it the promisor (borrower) or the promisee (recipient i.e. lender)?

I'm keen to know what the law on 'ownership' of a promissory note is.

Lenders, apparently, can endorse, encash, sell, trade and buy them as they see fit, without disclosure to the promisor and for their personal gain and enrichment. :clap: This is actually, I suppose OK if in fact they lend REAL money of their own. They can also lodge them as securities and assets against which they can then do even more lending!!! :gasp: Definitely NOT ok!

Also, in all the years I've been making these 'promises to pay', I've never yet got the original back after the thing was paid off. Does anyone know anyone that has???

This would suggest that the note is never 'owned' by the promisor i.e. us. Unless of course the lenders, on top of their 'money of out thin air' fraud, are involved in another major fraud, the trading of notes that don't belong to them!

If this is fact not correct, do we then have a right to ask for the PN back, after it's been 'paid off'? :thinks:

I am opined to think that we do have the right to ask for it back either because it belongs to us outright, or because it belongs to both lender and borrower jointly i.e. it should have both our signatures on it (but of course does not in most cases) so we can at least demand sight of it (even if not repossession of it)?

Somehow, it would be hard to accept that the note belongs exclusively to the lender even AFTER the note has been settled. I can see that while a loan is in force, in exchange for money, the promissory note would he held by the lender as their security against the promisor (assuming REAL money for a moment) though ownership would still remain with the promisor. The difficulty of course, is getting lenders to affirm that the PN is itself the item of greatest value, more on that later though.

So then, why would I want to request my original PN back when it's been settled? A whole host of reasons :grin: ...such as...

1) To cause a bit of consternation for their legal department...
2) To try and use it as a means to clean up any adverse marks on one's credit file...
3) To try and get back real monies paid to clear a phoney debt...
4) Just good old spite for being treated like rubbish by certain people...
5) Justice...
...etc etc

Problem is, were the lender to say its been destroyed etc as the debt was settled after the contract ended, what come back would one have?
Does the lender have a right to destroy this written promise on settlement? Does the promisor automatically sign away this right to the lender as part of the contract? Even if so, should the lender not have to provide evidence the PN had indeed been destroyed?

If not, is the lender not supposed to dutifully return the PN to the promisor on it's settlement? It seems to me that return of the signed original is the only way for the lender to lawfully guarantee the promisor that

1) No hanky panky has been done to the PN whilst it was in the lender's possession and
2) No hanky panky will continue to be done to the PN by anyone else after it has allegedly been settled.

As evidence of 'settlement', why should the promisor have to accept a 'statement' or letter from the lender saying account 'closed', or even a comment on their credit file saying settled/closed etc?

Thoughtful comments please anyone???? (emphasis on thoughtful... :grin:).

Re: Who OWNS the Promissory Note?

PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 5:17 pm
by bustthematrix
Of course, one could say the fact that a lender no longer expects payment from or chases the borrower for payment means the debt is accepted as settled, but again, is this enough??

I’ve heard of cases where a lender ‘left a borrower alone’ for years (mortgage redemption shortfalls come to mind) only to turn up years later demanding much increased amounts!!! :no:

Re: Who OWNS the Promissory Note?

PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 5:20 pm
by BaldBeardyDude
Good question BTM, but I have another, which I think may be more important.....not to hijack your thread, but I think this will nest quite nicely with yours-

Who owns the goods paid for with promissory notes?

ie - If I pay for something with Bank of England promissory notes (money), who owns the goods I paid for?

All I did was to take someone elses promissory note and exchange it for goods, so I don't technically own anything I buy with money, do I?

Thoughts anyone please, as this is a hell of a trump card if played!

Re: Who OWNS the Promissory Note?

PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 5:23 pm
by kevin
Good point Pete, you've only promised to pay when you handed over your fiat

Re: Who OWNS the Promissory Note?

PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 6:45 pm
by bustthematrix
So then, WHO owns the promissory note and who decides what can and can't be done with it?

Who decides what can and can't happen to it after it's settled?

Re: Who OWNS the Promissory Note?

PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 6:50 pm
by emmanualgoldstein
Sun Tsu says - hold out a bait to lure your enemy.

Has anyone thought of the advantages that could be attained by operating our own promissory note scheme amongst ourselves, trading for things of potentially little or no value but having a promissory worth (amongst ourselves) of millionsm billions, trillions of pounds. The idea wouldnt be to trade these notes out into their system, but to entice the greedy fatcats into ours.

Re: Who OWNS the Promissory Note?

PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 8:09 am
by Highspirit
My research would indicate that the creator of the Note , owns the note. I gathered that from an audio I listened to which I have posted here;

This is a USA based teleconference but obvioulsy very relevant anywhere. It goes into the fact that every agreement/contract is in fact a Trust and this is hidden within the contract you sign. However, because your signature gives rise to the trust then you are the Grantor/Trustor of the trust (so I understand) and you do own the Note. It is yours, you created it, made it, issued it and you are the holder in due course. I believe you would need to send an 'Affidavit' to rebut them being the owner of the note which you may have signed over to them within the contract.

I understand some are sending in 'Affidavits' to rescind their signatures and even change the block on the note to show you as the 'Lender' and the Bank as the Borrower. An un-rebuuted Affidavit stands as Law in commerce :)

Anyway, have a listen and see what you think.

Re: Who OWNS the Promissory Note?

PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 8:27 am
by Highspirit
Pete, in relation to your point;

Yes, since the greedy Banksters seized all the Gold for themselves and then made us use their 'Private' currency/toilet paper then we are using thin air promises to pay with their game tokens. That would mean that if we are using their game tokens then everything of any value belongs to them. We cant 'buy' anything anymore, only 'purchase'. To 'buy' means to use something of monetary value and that you would have alloidal title not just equitable title. We only have to look at what we have to 'Register' that has anything of 'value', lol, even that now sounds funny 'value'. By registering anything it is of course given over in legal title and notifying our slave masters of their new 'property acquisition'. Notifying them that their game tokens has 'purchased' something that they have legal title to because they own the tokens that were used for the purchase.

My views anyway lol

Re: Who OWNS the Promissory Note?

PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 9:57 am
by BaldBeardyDude
Yes. All valid points here, it seems.

We may not know decisively what is what with these things, but I think we can be sure there is enough shade for TPTB to exploit at our expense. :thinks:

More diggin required - thanks all. :yes:

Bloody good thread, BTM :sun:

Re: Who OWNS the Promissory Note?

PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 9:59 am
by gepisar
Okey dokey, lets have a crack at this:

HS, suppose you and I are bankrupt. But we still want to do business. Since we are bankrupt, we have no "money" (gold, silver whatever, since thats all pledged to the creditors as assets we had at the time of bankruptcy)

So, lets say you and I run a fruit shop. You send me oranges for my shop, and i send you bananas for yours. BUT like any trade, we disagree on value but agree on price: one orange is worth half a banana.

Now, we could agree to settle in oranges or bananas, but I say to you, lets agree that a banana is worth one pound sterling.

So, now, every time we exchange a banana for an orange, you write me an I.O.U for 50p. (banana = £1, orange =50p) and we agree that WHEN we get out of bankruptcy, we shall cash in all those IOUs for gold or silver or whatever.

So, now we can ask a few questions:

IF HS gave me IOUs, on fancy coloured paper (that had on them the words "I promise to bay the bearer" and maybe a picture of the queen, say, just for laughs) who owns them?

You can also see that nothing is actually "PAID" for, but rather IOU or pledges, BAIL money if you like, is exchanged to balance the indebtedness.

Now, suppose BBD owns a shop, I want some of his strawberry's, and he's bankrupt too. I can either exchange my bananas, oranges, or IOU's from HS as 'bail' until such time as we're all out of bankruptcy. (Sound familiar?)

Now, at the end of the day, we all come out of bankruptcy.

BBD has a fist full of HS's IOU's transmitted via my goodself. HS honours those notes and exchanges the IOUs for something of real substance with BBD.

This is of course fine.

What now ISNT right and proper is for me to go down my ledger and ask HS to make good on every IOU he gave ME (that I passed on, sold or otherwise disposed of)

In the meantime, who owns the IOU notes?

Well, possession is 9/10s.

And secondly, the NOTE itself (a bit of paper with a ink drawing of a lizard) is worth, lets say, 2 pence.

So, who owns that is really irrelevant.

The real question is whats the value of the promise behind it.

So, i suggest, that whats important is the contract to promise to pay. Can we ask who owns a contract? Can we even ask whats VALUE? These are abstracts, presented by a slight of hand to be real.

ANd of course, this is how the whole system works. We trade for IOUs, and at every trade we disagree on value, but agree on price and this is how value is funnelled up to the top and our REAL wealth stripped from us.

But then all the abuse that goes on top of that, banks asking us to repay IOU's that they've already moved on etc...

Suggestions, comments..questions...?