Who OWNS the Promissory Note?

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Re: Who OWNS the Promissory Note?

Postby bustthematrix » Wed Dec 16, 2009 6:21 pm

gepisar wrote:A bearer bond is a debt security issued by a business entity, such as a corporation, or by a government. It differs from the more common types of investment securities in that it is unregistered – no records are kept of the owner, or the transactions involving ownership. Whoever physically holds the paper on which the bond is issued owns the instrument.

And from investopedia.com:....

So, my "money" is on the holder - i.e. possession 9/10ths, i.e. the holder is the owner.

GP

Good work mate, not sure I would you put that much stock into these statements on Bearer Bonds though.

Are the things we are dealing with Bearer Bonds?
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Re: Who OWNS the Promissory Note?

Postby bustthematrix » Wed Dec 16, 2009 6:26 pm

The difference to me is that a bond issuer KNOWS they are issuing a bond to a 'buyer'. The relationship and obligations are clearer and pre-defined.

To us, it's not presented that way and we are not told our PN is even a bond, much less that it's worth anything!
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Re: Who OWNS the Promissory Note?

Postby bustthematrix » Wed Dec 16, 2009 6:40 pm

gepisar wrote:Ive even heard, though again unsubstantiated, that all these PromNotes are kept at the bank and because we dont ask for them back, the bank claims them as abandoned funds and doubles their money (well, almost)
...

GP

I've heard this too, from more than one source (unrelated I might add). If it's true, it's further evidence of the fraud!

Rod, I think there's definitely a good case for Noticing past lenders for the return of 'satisfied' promissory notes. If they tell you it's destroyed etc...what then?

GP, in the context in which we speak, you have to forget the general implications of National bankruptcy for a moment. The Goverment pretends it's not bankrupt, the lenders act as if they're not bankrupt and so do we. So even though in reality it's just debt being shuffled around, in actuality we are paying their computer generated debt with real economic money and that is definitely a major fraud. Especially as they don't disclose it.
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Re: Who OWNS the Promissory Note?

Postby bustthematrix » Wed Dec 16, 2009 6:52 pm

gepisar wrote:So, my "money" is on the holder - i.e. possession 9/10ths, i.e. the holder is the owner.

Ok. So what rights does the issuer or maker have then?

If the holder is now both the 'owner' and beneficiary, can he not do with the PN/Bond what he pleases without recourse to the maker (as long as issuer's terms are not modified etc)?

Once the loan/PN/bond is 'paid off' though, I can't see why the holder/owner should still retain the note. Should it not rightly go back to the issuer? Does anyone know what the common/current practice is in the bond market? This might give some clues...
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Re: Who OWNS the Promissory Note?

Postby gepisar » Wed Dec 16, 2009 7:09 pm

Bearer bonds are as good as cash. The holder can exchange them for other instruments/cash.

Remember, bonds are often raised as loans to a company: if a company needs cash, it can sell bonds to anyone who buys them. Bonds may or may not pay dividends or other annuities or other benefits, known as coupons. The company guarantees the bond though... i,e they promise to be able to re-purchase it at sometime in the future (or not) and the bonds are guaranteed in different ways: stock, future earnings, assets of the company.

What the company gets is a cheap loan..i.e. cash from you it can use to develop the business. You get the benefit of the bond... MOSTLY its yours to sell. There are a few bonds with conditions of re-sale, but these are specialised items, but in general, the bond is yours...you made the loan, you have the benefits and rights of the bond and the ability to dispose of it as you see fit.(regulations aside etc...)

A bondholder is the owner of a government or corporate bond. Being a bondholder is often considered safer than being a shareholder because if a company liquidates, it must pay its bondholders before it pays its shareholders. Being a bondholder entitles one to receive regular interest payments, if the bond pays interest (usually semiannually or annually), as well as a return of principal when the bond matures.

Sorted?

btw, the only thing about bearer bonds is that there is little or NO registration of who bought the bond. Its anonymous in some cases meaning, if you lose them, tough. Whereas registered bonds have a serial number and a record of the transactions so any theft of the paper can be sorted out. (i.e. those bonds cancelled and new ones issues)

Interestingly, this CAN BE DONE with currency notes. If you accidentally destroyed a ten pound note and had the serial number, in theory you can order a new one. This is done quite frequently, but im not sure under what circumstances. You might have to send the partially burned/accidentally shredded note along with your begging letter....
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Re: Who OWNS the Promissory Note?

Postby bustthematrix » Thu Dec 17, 2009 11:37 am

Hi GP. Thanks for that useful expose.

Well then, it seems clear to me that as I said, the 'rules' around bonds are very tightly set so that they CAN be tradeable securities and readily interchangeable with CASH. This takes care of the issue of ownership and rights on the note.

With our promissory notes though, there's still some 'grey' areas. For one, the 'lender' does not tell us they are 'buying' our bond. They certainly don't tell how they are 'paying' for that purchase i.e. magic money or infact money we create which they then take and 'lend' back to us.

So it's still not clear to me where the lines are in this. :puzz:
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Re: Who OWNS the Promissory Note?

Postby gepisar » Thu Dec 17, 2009 12:32 pm

BTM,

I love this forum. You give a little and then a bit gold drops out:

bustthematrix wrote:
With our promissory notes though, there's still some 'grey' areas. For one, the 'lender' does not tell us they are 'buying' our bond. They certainly don't tell how they are 'paying' for that purchase i.e. magic money or infact money we create which they then take and 'lend' back to us.


EXACTLY! You got it! "Buying our BOND!" Thats EXACTLY what they are doing. Our signature on that paper gives it honour, credence, or another word is CREDIT. Forget about "money we create and they take..." We, bond our signature with a promise to pay. The banks exchange that for 10,000 promises to pay you a unit amount, say against your promise or note of credit, for 10,000 units (for example a loan of 10k). Thats it. were done. Equal.

Now just to harp on: The bank dont tell you this, thats non disclosure. They THEN use false accounting to show only one half of the balance sheet (deposit, 10,000 from them, but they dont show the assests of 10,000 from you. So they've broken GAAP rules) Then they ask you to repay what? Well, the principal plus interest, which is MORE that your credit, so there is no longer equal consideration...

So, this process isnt quite money we create that they take and lend back, thats the net effect. What they actually do is fraud, which is worse!

Ta da!

thanks btm!
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Re: Who OWNS the Promissory Note?

Postby bustthematrix » Thu Dec 17, 2009 1:49 pm

...err GP

Interesting thoughts. Do you think you might be complicating things a bit though? When you say there's an equal exchange, what exactly do you mean?

When one 'buys' a bond, you do it to get agreed income (interest) plus your principal back at some agreed point. You exchange cash now with the issuer in exchange for this benefit. The problem lies in if you do not get your interest payments or your principal back. So there's an obligation on the issuer to perform as per the terms of the bond! To me, that is not a fraud.

However, it IS fraud when you don't tell the issuer they are selling you a bond which may have monetary value in excess of what you are paying them; when the money you use to 'pay' is not your own cash but a cash conversion directly derived from the bond you are buying with that very cash; when you go a step further to 'secure' your 'cash' against the assets of the bond issuer etc.

To me, though the fraud of modern banking is multifaceted, this is where the real fraud lies.

Of course, when you examine it through the lens of so-called National bankruptcy, everything changes because now we're talking about discharging our own debt notes with debt notes backed by the Central Bank - but then they back their notes with .... nothing!...and it all gets a bit hairy

For the purposes of this discussion, I think it's best to handle this as if we are operating in equity (real money, though we know better) and not national bankruptcy as this is what will make the frauds clear and highlight what our and their rights and obligations are for obtaining remedy!!!!!!!
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Re: Who OWNS the Promissory Note?

Postby gepisar » Thu Dec 17, 2009 10:21 pm

This is why we have a forum!!!

I was getting a little ahead of myself. Id not correctly remembered the requirement for a contract to have consideration. I thought for a moment (too much lunch time gin) that EQUAL consideration must be brought. But thats not the case.

In the example of a loan for 10,000 repayable in 5 years with 8,000 quid of interest:

Whos to say that 10,000 promises to pay today are not worth 18,000 promises to 're-pay' in 5 years times. (Money would have lost value etc...) so that argument doesnt hold up.
And I retract it. Thanks for the correction.

I find the whole process of money creation of great interest. And especially the notion that money is backed, eventually, by thin air. And it all falls down when you get to the root.

However, Im exploring the specifics of the internal processes.

The "big picture" net result is I sign a loan form then I get money in my account.
This doesnt do the process justice.

All things require investigating, and I think you'd agree, that even if its complicated it requires discussion, evaluation, and consideration by smart cookies such as yourself for the reason that more information may be deduced, or that this particular line of thought leads nowhere and should be closed.

For the purposes of this discussion, I think it's best to handle this as if we are operating in equity (real money, though we know better) and not national bankruptcy as this is what will make the frauds clear and highlight what our and their rights and obligations are for obtaining remedy!!!!!!!


I dont mean this flippantly, but is this for convenience of an easy argument - or is it the way it really is? i.e. does it affect the outcome of what we're aiming to achieve? Or am i splitting hairs?
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Re: Who OWNS the Promissory Note?

Postby bustthematrix » Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:27 am

Hi GP

As always , thanks for your input. I know that we ARE effectively operating in National bankruptcy AND we have a 'currency' that's not in real money. I have some understanding of some of the implications of this.

I'm simply trying to get at the root issues around the promissory note itself and you've highlighted some good points by looking at Bearer Bonds etc as a wider topic. I just did not wnat the discussion to become too focused on bearer bonds as even though very similiar to the PNs created by us for mortgages, credit cards, loans etc, they are a very specific type of security with much more clearly defined rules around their operation which may/may not apply to PNs.

Simply put, please feel free to contribute whatever you feel is relevant to the thread subject.
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